{"id":736,"date":"2022-07-01T22:23:00","date_gmt":"2022-07-01T22:23:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/?p=736"},"modified":"2026-06-29T14:01:11","modified_gmt":"2026-06-29T14:01:11","slug":"the-salem-witches-of-id-or-cancel-culture-has-arrived-in-instructional-design","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/?p=736","title":{"rendered":"The Salem Witches of ID OR Cancel culture has arrived in Instructional Design"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both;text-align: center\"><a href=\"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/07\/erica-marsland-huynh-nSv6iTjq72Y-unsplash-scaled.jpg\" style=\"margin-left: 1em;margin-right: 1em\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Photograph of Salem-like harvest table with autumn colors\" border=\"0\" data-original-height=\"4032\" data-original-width=\"3024\" height=\"640\" data-src=\"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/07\/erica-marsland-huynh-nSv6iTjq72Y-unsplash-scaled.jpg\" width=\"480\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" class=\"lazyload\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 480px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 480\/640;\" \/><\/a><\/div>\n<\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Photo by <a href=\"https:\/\/unsplash.com\/es\/@partyintheshire?utm_source=unsplash&amp;utm_medium=referral&amp;utm_content=creditCopyText\">Erica Marsland Huynh<\/a> on <a href=\"https:\/\/unsplash.com\/s\/photos\/salem-witch?utm_source=unsplash&amp;utm_medium=referral&amp;utm_content=creditCopyText\">Unsplash<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">What do the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.smithsonianmag.com\/history\/a-brief-history-of-the-salem-witch-trials-175162489\/\" rel=\"nofollow\" target=\"_blank\">Salem witch trials<\/a> and woke cancel culture have in common?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Both established rogue thoughts as truth.<\/p>\n<p>I&#8217;m sorry to report that over the past few months, cancel culture has arrived in Instructional Design.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Personally, I&#8217;ve seen &#8220;<b>Andragogy<\/b>&#8221; and &#8220;<b>Brain-Based Learning<\/b>&#8221; attacked and discarded on public LinkedIn posts, threads, and some blog posts. I&#8217;ll be collecting them here below as I find them. However, if there get to be too many (and already collecting these was depressing and exhausting.&nbsp; In one case there were 30 replies and that was not even to me!) I&#8217;ll stop collecting.<\/p>\n<p><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\"><span>&nbsp;<\/span>It is as if a newer ID hears of brain-based learning, says to<br \/>\nthemselves &#8220;huh, where else is learning supposed to happen?&#8221; and then<br \/>\ncalls brain-based learning stupid because of the name. <br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">I&#8217;ve<br \/>\n tried to point out that what&#8217;s happening is that less educated<br \/>\nInstructional Designers are approaching these concepts as words only or<br \/>\nwith very little in-depth research and are tossing out the concept<br \/>\nentirely.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">In<br \/>\n the case of Andragogy, I tried defending it. It&#8217;s an established<br \/>\nsection of education with a depth of history of more than 50 years (in<br \/>\npopular Education studies, longer in lexicon). Attacking it, to me, is<br \/>\nthe equivalent of attacking Black History.&nbsp; Why would you do this? It<br \/>\nmakes no sense.&nbsp; The arguments against andragogy always seem to equate little children with adults.&nbsp; <\/p>\n<p>For example: <br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<ul style=\"text-align: left\">\n<li><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">According to andragogy, adults want to know why. <\/span><\/li>\n<li><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">My child asks why.&nbsp;<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">When doing so, my child behaves as an adult.<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">My child is not an adult.<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Therefore, andragogy does not exist.&nbsp;<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Rinse &amp; repeat with a lot of cognitive elements (my child can do this, my child can do that&#8230;)&nbsp; Always exceptions. Piaget gets dragged into this (he does below). Perhaps then begin the &#8220;Well, if one part of false, then all parts are false&#8221; arguments&#8230;which themselves are <a href=\"https:\/\/www.psychologytoday.com\/intl\/blog\/thoughts-thinking\/201708\/18-common-logical-fallacies-and-persuasion-techniques\" target=\"_blank\">logical fallacies<\/a>. Duh.<\/p>\n<p>It&#8217;s tough out there. Note in this first example, the author is the post is ALSO the author of the article hosting place called The Learning Scientists&#8212; which is a point that I make; that the OP is putting on a aura of authority that is, perhaps, inappropriately authoritative to the audience. Said another way, readers might not understand that the writing, all inclusive here, was opinion.<br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<div>\n<h2 style=\"text-align: left\">Andragogy<br \/><\/h2>\n<p><span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><!--more--><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\"><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">~May 1, 2022<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\"><\/span><\/p>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both;text-align: center\"><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\"><a href=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/img\/b\/R29vZ2xl\/AVvXsEifq9_Sxuapho9qNbAUvwOPEHRDt_MwApUhuYq_uuxQVm78GQNWssHqiCUe8nEzC1PWhqEA1YdNvQXCTMKRpeoIh820a6iyMdMstDNrE81lHZyy-vt4FodSVZtZNrR6XRwSXDtOKx7LnYc5yXihkfxSq7HC-RENIv81qtG4LL5hZ_1-sSQp5N9OZfZE\/w578-h640\/Andragogy%20Post%20blur.png\" style=\"margin-left: 1em;margin-right: 1em\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Screen capture of LinkedIn post: Pedagogy vs. Andragogy: What&apos;s The Difference, from The Learning Scientists. Responder says (Spoilder alert: Nothing really)\" border=\"0\" data-original-height=\"617\" data-original-width=\"557\" height=\"640\" data-src=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/img\/b\/R29vZ2xl\/AVvXsEifq9_Sxuapho9qNbAUvwOPEHRDt_MwApUhuYq_uuxQVm78GQNWssHqiCUe8nEzC1PWhqEA1YdNvQXCTMKRpeoIh820a6iyMdMstDNrE81lHZyy-vt4FodSVZtZNrR6XRwSXDtOKx7LnYc5yXihkfxSq7HC-RENIv81qtG4LL5hZ_1-sSQp5N9OZfZE\/w578-h640\/Andragogy%20Post%20blur.png\" width=\"578\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" class=\"lazyload\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 578px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 578\/640;\" \/><\/a><\/span><\/div>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\"><br \/>&nbsp;<br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.learningscientists.org\/blog\/2022\/3\/17-1\" rel=\"nofollow\" target=\"_blank\">Pedagogy vs. Andragogy: What&#8217;s The Difference, from The Learning Scientists<\/a>:&nbsp;<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Follow up discussion, in part, on LinkedIn (I&#8217;m going to copy and paste and anonymize, except for me. All spelling in situ):<br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Heather (first to comment):<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Oo.<br \/>\n Downvote. \ud83d\udc4e First of all, opinion based. Second, approaching from the<br \/>\nplace where I see most criticisms of andragogy launch from: that<br \/>\nchildren are &#8220;little adults&#8221; as in children can be found to have some of<br \/>\n the characteristics of adults some of the time. I don&#8217;t find that to be<br \/>\n a strong argument.<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Larry:<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Huh?<br \/>\n Did you read the article? Sources are referenced and the &#8220;little adult&#8221;<br \/>\n argument isn&#8217;t even related to what is discussed here. Knowles talks<br \/>\nabout five ways pedagogy differs from andragogy, and this article<br \/>\naddresses those five areas, often describing the adult novice mind being<br \/>\n more like a child&#8217;s mind, not vice versa. Your response is a passion<br \/>\nplea, not a rebuttal.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Heather:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Larry, <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">I<br \/>\n did read the article. The sources are referenced, but not cited. There<br \/>\nis a difference. I would also point out that the author writes &#8220;<b>here\u2019s<br \/>\nmy analysis<\/b>&#8221; so I believe it is clear that they are not aiming for solid<br \/>\n academic writing. Some of the sources appear to show that methods that<br \/>\nwork for adults work for children. Hooray! Cheers all around! That&#8217;s<br \/>\ngreat for learning! But it does not support the author&#8217;s point.<br \/>I<br \/>\ndisagree with your characterization of Knowles &#8211; and that is not the<br \/>\ntopic of my post which was pointed to the Learning Scientists post. I<br \/>\nfeel andragogy addresses the differences for adult learners.  Your<br \/>\nresponse to me is interesting. I&#8217;m intrigued. Would you prefer if this<br \/>\narticle by the Learning Scientists was entitled &#8220;Treat Adults Like<br \/>\nSecond Graders&#8221;? That&#8217;s the vice versa.<\/p>\n<p>[Since this is my blog, I can show you that writing right here!]<\/p>\n<p><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both;text-align: center\"><a href=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/img\/b\/R29vZ2xl\/AVvXsEgJEn0n1Uj5Ov1tealttCh49R9b11pfPfdX4fOtgAyT6tuGMZSn7eOp_1_slhrVenMkXiUkOkSdrSZ-A6WiwQa2aZ9ZyAJFHXxJmwKwawOXwLYDuP7eks3Djq2RISyrOfEQIz8RWcpBnENH8c4sbpgrARja5uET3OWQCIO12jIQvMJGnBtWeqzUNDqw\/w466-h640\/opinion%20piece.png\" style=\"margin-left: 1em;margin-right: 1em\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Screen capture of opinion piece on andragogy versus pedagogy\" border=\"0\" data-original-height=\"1139\" data-original-width=\"828\" height=\"640\" data-src=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/img\/b\/R29vZ2xl\/AVvXsEgJEn0n1Uj5Ov1tealttCh49R9b11pfPfdX4fOtgAyT6tuGMZSn7eOp_1_slhrVenMkXiUkOkSdrSZ-A6WiwQa2aZ9ZyAJFHXxJmwKwawOXwLYDuP7eks3Djq2RISyrOfEQIz8RWcpBnENH8c4sbpgrARja5uET3OWQCIO12jIQvMJGnBtWeqzUNDqw\/w466-h640\/opinion%20piece.png\" width=\"466\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" class=\"lazyload\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 466px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 466\/640;\" \/><\/a><\/div>\n<p><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Byron:&nbsp;<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Heather, <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">I<br \/>\n think the issue is this &#8211; if there are distinct differences, they are<br \/>\nnot those that Kniwles identified generations ago.  Like all science,<br \/>\nwe\u2019ve learned differently.  Your quip regarding treating adults as 2nd<br \/>\ngraders actually needs to be flipped, in regards to learning.  Knowles<br \/>\nwas not addressing cognitive science, rather behaviorist approaches that<br \/>\n we have found to be less effective since his version of differentiated<br \/>\nconstructivism was unleashed upon the world. And it\u2019s not that adult<br \/>\nlearning theory is wrong, we just need to remove the term \u201cadult\u201d.  Now,<br \/>\n perhaps with our very youngest learners, it\u2019s less applicable, but two<br \/>\ndecades of working with learners of literally all ages indicates<br \/>\notherwise.  <br \/>One only needs to look at a child\u2019s favorite and most<br \/>\nannoying question to begin debunking the notion that adults have<br \/>\ninherently different motivations and practices for learning.  Knowles,<br \/>\nlike learning styles, will soon join Hercules and Odin in the annals of<br \/>\nhistory.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Larry:<br \/>Heather, <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">I<br \/>\n didn&#8217;t make any characterization of Knowles, so I&#8217;m not sure what you<br \/>\nthink you&#8217;re disagreeing with. I did reference Knowles distinctions<br \/>\nbetween andragogy and pedagogy discussed in the article. If you think<br \/>\nhis assumptions are correct, how about you address the five areas<br \/>\ncontrasted instead of introducing unrelated (and also outdated, btw)<br \/>\ncriticism of 1960s era behavioral approaches &#8211; that&#8217;s what the &#8220;little<br \/>\nadults&#8221; argument actually refers to. This article disputes Knowles<br \/>\nassumptions, and even Knowles admits they are his ideas\/opinions, not<br \/>\nscientific fact.<\/p>\n<p>From the article: Educators should know their<br \/>\nlearners, make content relevant to those individuals, give them choice<br \/>\nin the learning process, and build on their prior knowledge \u2013 whether<br \/>\nthey are novices or experts in the domain at hand. These principles are<br \/>\ntrue for learners of any age.<\/p>\n<p>Since you seem entrenched in the<br \/>\nidea that Knowles&#8217; theory is somehow supported by peer-reviewed<br \/>\nscientific data, show us the data. Dispute the argument at hand, not the<br \/>\n one you&#8217;re trying to assign to the article.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Heather:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Larry, <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">My initial post was my response. For your other request, it does not seem sincere. Therefore, I care not.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Larry:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Heather, <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">your<br \/>\n post is a position not reflective of the argument presented in the<br \/>\narticle. It&#8217;s a red herring. Your questioning of my sincerity is<br \/>\ndeflection. The irony is, your initial post is your own opinion not<br \/>\nbacked by data disparaging someone else&#8217;s opinion because they are<br \/>\nreferencing but not directly citing peer-reviewed studies, which I find<br \/>\nkind of hilarious.<br \/><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><!--more--><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Larry&#8217;s independent comment (no replies)<br \/><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Since<br \/>\n I first heard of Knowles, his main premise didn&#8217;t sit well with me. It<br \/>\nseemed very disrespectful to children and how particularly Americans<br \/>\nprefer to educate their children. How we think changes across the<br \/>\nlifespan and one of the greatest disservices we do to children is assume<br \/>\n they are naive, when in fact they may simply have different experiences<br \/>\n and therefore different world views. Like any other person. To assume<br \/>\nsomeone &#8220;knows nothing&#8221; because they are young is ageism and just says<br \/>\nto me you didn&#8217;t allow them space to make themselves understood.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span>&nbsp;<\/span><\/span><\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/span>&nbsp;<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Byron&#8217;s independent comment (no replies)<br \/><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Thank you!  I\u2019ve been screaming this from the mountain tops for years.<\/span><\/span>&nbsp;<\/span><\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><!--more--><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Charlie&#8217;s independent comment:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Yes!<br \/>\n \ud83d\udc4f\ud83d\udc4f \ud83d\udc4f  Andragogy is flat earth theory for learning professionals!<br \/>\nIt&#8217;s amazing how we in society have come to think that a human<br \/>\nfundamentally evolves as soon as we hit 18 where we don&#8217;t need to engage<br \/>\n the 5 senses in learning or that we didn&#8217;t need hand&#8217;s on, why based<br \/>\nlearning in grade school. Our basic humanity does not change. The only<br \/>\nthings that happen as we age beyond childhood are that some of us<br \/>\nacquire the skill to extract meaning from a single mode of<br \/>\ncommunication, and that we bootstrap ourselves as we build on prior<br \/>\nexperiences. But this does not mean we don&#8217;t need multiple modes of<br \/>\nrepresentation and involvement to learn at our best. LOL!<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Byron:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">\ud83d\ude02 \u201cFlat earth theory for learning professionals.\u201d  Can I steal this?<br \/><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Charlie:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Bryon, <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Absolutely!<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Heather:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">You shame yourself.<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Charlie:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Would love to hear a counter-argument. I&#8217;m game! How about it?&nbsp;<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><br \/><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both;text-align: center\"><a href=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/img\/b\/R29vZ2xl\/AVvXsEgC9KXkPdanZIVqmdChrLnhbgnMXspS1GFOJC7D_GBhmfRt8-rtlq1WqliPeNhx-YHJjmW24IrI9cHPA7zL-kGIzmqFOm8WZA10zeRcSI-KDZ4BiRJmM7TEHNlnooNC9nja7V_DJBvB33fuNt4TBVpE_tFVJSdK97KBWKF-IRCcCHLtrZusVj4DVgU5\/w400-h400\/Do%20not%20answer%20a%20fool%20according%20to%20his%20folly,%20or%20you%20yourself%20will%20be%20just%20like%20him..png\" style=\"margin-left: 1em;margin-right: 1em\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Image with Proverb 26:4, Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him.\" border=\"0\" data-original-height=\"1200\" data-original-width=\"1200\" height=\"400\" data-src=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/img\/b\/R29vZ2xl\/AVvXsEgC9KXkPdanZIVqmdChrLnhbgnMXspS1GFOJC7D_GBhmfRt8-rtlq1WqliPeNhx-YHJjmW24IrI9cHPA7zL-kGIzmqFOm8WZA10zeRcSI-KDZ4BiRJmM7TEHNlnooNC9nja7V_DJBvB33fuNt4TBVpE_tFVJSdK97KBWKF-IRCcCHLtrZusVj4DVgU5\/w400-h400\/Do%20not%20answer%20a%20fool%20according%20to%20his%20folly,%20or%20you%20yourself%20will%20be%20just%20like%20him..png\" width=\"400\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" class=\"lazyload\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 400px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 400\/400;\" \/><\/a><\/div>\n<p><span><!--more--><\/span>Amelia&#8217;s independent comment:<\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Basing<br \/>\n this opinion only on the premise of Knowles\u2019 theory of adult education<br \/>\nversus pedagogy is where I find fault with the above claim. I agree with<br \/>\n most of the points made but still wouldn\u2019t make the above statement<br \/>\nthat there\u2019s no real difference true. And I know, like most essays or<br \/>\njournalistic styles usually a quick duality rather than in-depth<br \/>\nanalysis of approach. And that analysis is much too long for a comment<br \/>\nin a thread but there are differences in approach, levels of learning,<br \/>\ndesired outcomes\u2014learning isn\u2019t apples to apples and why most<br \/>\ninstructional frameworks start with analysis.<\/p>\n<p><\/span><\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Byron:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Fair,<br \/>\n but plenty of neuro-research illustrates that the brain doesn\u2019t change<br \/>\nthe way it processes information.  The only glaring ageist difference is<br \/>\n in executive function, so concepts like motivation, task orientation,<br \/>\nand other self regulatory matters, but in my experience (nearly 2<br \/>\ndecades extensively with ages 12 &#8211; 70), there is very, very little<br \/>\ndifference to approach.  The desired learning outcomes are the same.<br \/>\nThe approaches and methodologies that produce results are the same.  As<br \/>\nyou\u2019ve noted, there is too much for a single comment, but I could on for<br \/>\n hours on this topic.<\/p>\n<p>Amelia:<\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Byron, <\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">do you have experience in early childhood education?<br \/><\/span><\/span><\/span><br \/><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">The<br \/>\n reason I ask is because I think having a great grasp of pedagogy makes<br \/>\nfor a well-versed adult educator. Especially now with more progressive<br \/>\nviews on teaching critical thinking and lifelong application. Those I<br \/>\nknow who have focused their careers on adult education usually have a<br \/>\ntougher transition\u2014not saying it\u2019s impossible\u2014to pedagogy. That\u2019s the<br \/>\nshortest and probably crassest example of why I don\u2019t think they\u2019re<br \/>\nequal.<\/p>\n<p>Heather:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Byron: <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Some<br \/>\n definitions of &#8220;adult&#8221; begin with puberty or first experience of sex<br \/>\nwhich in Western countries happens before age 12. Just be aware that<br \/>\nclaiming you don&#8217;t see much differences in ages 12-70&#8230;isn&#8217;t saying<br \/>\nmuch. \ud83d\ude01<\/p>\n<p>Byron:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Heather, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Fair,<br \/>\n but then that\u2019s the whole flaw with the Knowles model.  At what point<br \/>\ndo we start this differentiation?  And I\u2019ve also done my fair share of<br \/>\nwork with pre-adolescents.  Still not much difference, including with my<br \/>\n own sons.<\/p>\n<p>Amelia, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">yes, though most of mine is at the secondary level<\/p>\n<p>Amelia:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">World of difference in development throughout those years from preschool to middle school!<\/p>\n<p>Byron:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Amelia, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">but<br \/>\n is this because of a difference in learning, or how learning develops?<br \/>\n Or is it behavioral in nature?  I\u2019d argue the latter.<\/p>\n<p>Heather:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Bryon, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Indeed,<br \/>\n defining an adult is an exercise done in the first couple of days of an<br \/>\n adult education course. Usually it starts at at something like<br \/>\n&#8220;independent, pays own bills&#8221;\/perhaps post-college and works its way<br \/>\nbackwards through drinking, voting, driving, to sex\/puberty. I haven&#8217;t<br \/>\nseen any arguments younger than puberty that claim &#8220;adultness&#8221; (i.e. an<br \/>\nawareness that some actions lead to death&#8211;sometimes religions use that<br \/>\nas a pre-baptism signal?).<br \/>I don&#8217;t think Knowles was concerned with<br \/>\nthe difference between 11 years &amp; 364 days old and 12&#8212; I suspect<br \/>\nhe was more concerned with age 7 and age 35 but then again, I&#8217;m not him.<\/p>\n<p>Betty:<br \/>Amelia, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">I would argue that the littles are more like the adults following this model.<\/p>\n<p>They need to know why. They will ask why for everything.<\/p>\n<p>They need choice or the illusion of choice (breakfast or get dressed first).<\/p>\n<p>They need to be apply the information immediately.  The idea of learning now to pass a test isn&#8217;t there for 6 year olds. <\/p>\n<p>They need hands on experiences more than listening to a teacher blab on and on.<\/p>\n<p>They<br \/>\n are motivated by their own desire to learn about a topic. For example,<br \/>\nmany kids love to learn about animals and will learn a ton. Again, the<br \/>\nconcept of learning because the teacher says they have to doesn&#8217;t<br \/>\ndevelop until they are a little older. <\/p>\n<p>Amelia:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Betty, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">if I\u2019m reading you correctly\u2014you\u2019re bringing up an argument about<br \/>\n motivation and yes, we hope at any age to instill curiousity and<br \/>\npassion for learning. My argument initially was about learning design<br \/>\nand how that looks different depending on age, situation, context\u2014 a<br \/>\nchild may need more teacher-led guidance than an adult. (One example)<\/p>\n<p>Byron:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Amelia, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">understood,<br \/>\n and I\u2019m not suggesting that there is no difference from age 2 to 20.<br \/>\nAnd I\u2019m well versed in childhood psych.  But if Knowles was solely<br \/>\nspeaking to early childhood learning, why call this \u201cadult\u201d learning<br \/>\ntheory?<\/p>\n<p>Betty, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">and even then, it\u2019s behavioral conditioning that breeds such compliance, not their innate nature.<\/p>\n<p>Amelia,<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Betty, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">As<br \/>\n for the last part, the teacher says they has to begins as early as<br \/>\npreschool\u2014lots of standardization in development an example of such test<br \/>\n is Brigance.<\/p>\n<p>Bryon, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">I\u2019m<br \/>\n not exactly sure I understand your question. The premise Im arguing to<br \/>\nis there being no real difference between pedagogy and adult learning.<br \/>\nAs Heather mentioned above, that\u2019s likely where the comparison came from<br \/>\n something like age 7 vs 35.<\/p>\n<p>Larry:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Amelia, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">your<br \/>\n argument is too broad. Obviously there are developmental differences<br \/>\nacross the lifespan. Motor development and cognitive development that<br \/>\noccur across the lifespan may impact the learner&#8217;s ability to produce a<br \/>\nresponse, but that is definitely not a continuum in terms of learning.<br \/>\nBecause of motor and cognitive development, some domains are easier to<br \/>\nlearn at certain earlier points in life, like language acquisition and<br \/>\nhighly technical athletic skills like gymnastics and figure skating. But<br \/>\n that has NOTHING to do with Knowles&#8217; five defined areas where child<br \/>\nlearning differs from adult learning. What the article argues, and what I<br \/>\n would argue as a life-ling learner and having worked as a learning<br \/>\nscientist, a teacher, a trainer (of humans, other animals, and even<br \/>\nplants), and an athletic conditioning coach over the past 40 years, is<br \/>\nthat there is NO DIFFERENCE in those specific five areas, regardless of<br \/>\nwho you&#8217;re training.<\/p>\n<p>From the article: <br \/>Educators should know<br \/>\ntheir learners, make content relevant to those individuals, give them<br \/>\nchoice in the learning process, and build on their prior knowledge \u2013<br \/>\nwhether they are novices or experts in the domain at hand. These<br \/>\nprinciples are true for learners of any age.<\/p>\n<p>Bryon:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Heather, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Perhaps,<br \/>\n and arguably likely, but even then the differences aren\u2019t marked enough<br \/>\n to warrant an entire theory dedicated to differentiating how people<br \/>\nlearn.  I suppose that\u2019s my platform statement on the matter?  And I\u2019m<br \/>\nnot suggesting that a 1 year olds learning needs are the same as a 30<br \/>\nyear olds, assuming the ages I previously selected weren\u2019t disparate<br \/>\nenough to illustrate my point.  But even still &#8211; HOW they learn isn\u2019t<br \/>\nreally different.  We can argue that adult motivations differ &#8211; get a<br \/>\njob, pay the bills, etc &#8211; but only in their context.  The mitivation for<br \/>\n learning falls under the larger umbrella of self-improvement, so<br \/>\nperhaps telling an adult \u201cyou need this to succeed at your job\u201d is a<br \/>\ncontext-specific motivational line.  But even with that, teachers and<br \/>\nparents alike use similar motivational lines with kids &#8211; \u201cit\u2019s your job\u201d<br \/>\n or \u201cyou need this to get a job.\u201d  Immediacy of need might differ, but<br \/>\nit\u2019s all the same stuff.  Knowles wasn\u2019t talking Piaget, he was<br \/>\naddressing behavioral norms, but behavioral norms are environmental<br \/>\ncontexts for learning, not HOW we learn.  Sorry, I\u2019m clearly too<br \/>\npassionate about this topic.<\/p>\n<p>Larry, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">exactly.<br \/>\n  Piaget and other early psych researchers developed frameworks for<br \/>\ndevelopment, but Knowles is addressing something much different in<br \/>\nentirely too broad terms.<\/p>\n<p>Betty:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Amelia, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m understanding.<\/p>\n<p> I know that my students in math need more teacher guidance than<br \/>\nhistory. Or my math intervention students need a different curriculum<br \/>\nthan the core classes.  Or my students need more guidance with a math<br \/>\nconcept on day 1 than day 3. Or my students in August need more guidance<br \/>\n on classroom expectations than they do in June. Or my students with<br \/>\nlearning disabilities need supports my other students do not. My<br \/>\nadvanced students need ways to challenge themselves.  My 6th graders<br \/>\nneeded more guidance than my 11th graders do. Teaching is full of those<br \/>\nnuances. It&#8217;s one reason teachers are constantly making decisions&#8230;we<br \/>\nare always adjusting our teaching based on student need. <\/p>\n<p>But the general principles stay the same. <\/p>\n<p>Amelia:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Larry, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Hmm\u2026we\u2019re<br \/>\n actually not disagreeing if you look at my comment again. \u201cBasing this<br \/>\nopinion only on the premise of Knowles\u2019 theory of adult education versus<br \/>\n pedagogy is where I find fault with the above claim. I agree with most<br \/>\nof the points made but still wouldn\u2019t make the above statement that<br \/>\nthere\u2019s no real difference true.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So yes, based on the five points made in the this post alone, I agree.<\/p>\n<p>Larry, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Also,<br \/>\n another point\u2014pedagogy to adult education works\u2014not necessarily the<br \/>\nother way around. I know it was a long thread but I stand by it. Don\u2019t<br \/>\nactually see an argument against what I said. Thanks for weighing in<br \/>\nthough and happy to always discuss these nuances!<\/p>\n<p>Amelia,<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Bryon, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">hahaha\u2014I was waiting for this. We circle back and agree.<\/p>\n<p>Larry:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Amelia, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">yes,<br \/>\n that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m trying to point out. You want to extend the discussion<br \/>\nbeyond what was presented as the argument, which was the validity of<br \/>\nKnowles theory of andragogy. Can&#8217;t criticize an argument that wasn&#8217;t<br \/>\nmade. No one was arguing that there aren&#8217;t developmental differences<br \/>\nbetween adults and children. But there is no difference in terms of<br \/>\nlearning theory, as your &#8220;pedagogy to adult learning works&#8221; comment<br \/>\nseems to suggest. That&#8217;s just a difference between whether you prefer a<br \/>\nsage on the stage directive approach or a guide on the side<br \/>\nconstructivist approach. Whether you see your learners as empty vessels<br \/>\nrequire you to tell them what they need to know and learn versus a more<br \/>\nself-directed approach.<\/p>\n<p>Amelia:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Larry, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Oh<br \/>\n I\u2019m sorry, I was just going by what you wrote\u2026my argument is \u201ctoo<br \/>\nbroad\u201d. Im happy to concede I introduced a new argument! And since we\u2019re<br \/>\n commenting and not talking irl, you\u2019ll have to excuse the specifics.<\/p>\n<p>Larry:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Amelia, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">what<br \/>\n I wrote was what you finally conceded to. So I don&#8217;t get why you felt<br \/>\nthe need to add &#8220;I&#8217;m sorry, I was just going by what you wrote&#8221; unless<br \/>\nit&#8217;s your way of acknowledging that you misunderstood what I was saying,<br \/>\n which is evident. <\/p>\n<p>Amelia:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Larry: <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"> &#8211; Funny, I feel the same way which generally happens on these threads. <br \/>I also feel like by your responses you\u2019re reading into some tone that really doesn\u2019t exist on my end. <\/p>\n<p>This<br \/>\n whole situation reminds me of one time, a team I was on went down a<br \/>\nrabbit hole about a thing we were working on\u2026after about an hour one<br \/>\nteam member threw up his hands and said with a huge eyeroll, \u201cCMON<br \/>\nGUYS\u2026pedagogy doesn\u2019t exist!\u201d <\/p>\n<p>Hope you have a good weekend, Linda.<\/p>\n<p>Larry:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Amelia, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">it&#8217;s<br \/>\n fine to misunderstand other people. It&#8217;s not fine to attribute<br \/>\nsomething to them which is in fact your own perception. Any &#8220;tone&#8221;<br \/>\nyou&#8217;re feeling is all you. Don Miguel Ruiz&#8217;s Agreement #2.<\/p>\n<p>Amelia:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Larry, <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">This<br \/>\n conversation has moved way beyond a discussion about ideas to a place<br \/>\nof ego. Im no longer interested in engaging with you in this space. Im<br \/>\nway more than happy to admit I misunderstand things, make mistakes, and<br \/>\nnot be the smartest person in the room (gross!). I\u2019ve tried numerous<br \/>\ntimes to talk to you but I\u2019m not being extended the same courtesy. Time<br \/>\nfor me to bow out.<\/p>\n<p>Larry:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Amelia:<\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">you<br \/>\n seem offended. Given that, I&#8217;m not sure why you are continuing to<br \/>\nengage me. Sorry you are choosing to view my words so negatively. <\/p>\n<p>Betty: <\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">exactly.<br \/>\n Great job addressing why there is no difference between pedagogy and<br \/>\nandragogy by directly showing that children need the same along the five<br \/>\n tenets Knowles described as being specific to adults only. Literally<br \/>\nwhat Knowles is describing is the difference between direct instruction<br \/>\nand constructivism. It&#8217;s a bit concerning to see so many people who<br \/>\nidentify as learning professionals have so loose a grasp on these<br \/>\nconcepts. The vitriol I&#8217;ve received from some folks on this thread just<br \/>\ngoes to show how entrenched some learning folks are in their own dogma.<\/p>\n<p><\/span><span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><!--more--><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">On this post, I&#8217;m stopping copying here. There were many more replies of support for the original post (so support that pedagogy does not exist). Sad.<\/p>\n<p><\/span><\/p>\n<h2 style=\"text-align: left\"><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Brain-based Learning<\/span><\/h2>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\"><br \/>July 1, 2022<\/span><\/p>\n<\/p>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both;text-align: center\"><a href=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/img\/b\/R29vZ2xl\/AVvXsEjrHzK-MTxTA4N1YNUvUt-Hnv9dbcZdP9sRyfu_y7N9pkHRdbisphfXKy1szIwWLE1cdAMmvcfreeNrpXjVrF0le_TeudRh56x8Zs-ya8eISKxRXM7QLAp6m7El41EacVcNG1ddaccx2Z-tGHfiJZNAfByYmw_VPwxBgBKBFT28HFF7I3Q-5YMUi7di\/w502-h640\/Myths%20in%20instructional%20design.png\" style=\"margin-left: 1em;margin-right: 1em\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Screen capture of LinkedIn Post for slide deck of Instructional Design Myths\" border=\"0\" data-original-height=\"710\" data-original-width=\"558\" height=\"640\" data-src=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/img\/b\/R29vZ2xl\/AVvXsEjrHzK-MTxTA4N1YNUvUt-Hnv9dbcZdP9sRyfu_y7N9pkHRdbisphfXKy1szIwWLE1cdAMmvcfreeNrpXjVrF0le_TeudRh56x8Zs-ya8eISKxRXM7QLAp6m7El41EacVcNG1ddaccx2Z-tGHfiJZNAfByYmw_VPwxBgBKBFT28HFF7I3Q-5YMUi7di\/w502-h640\/Myths%20in%20instructional%20design.png\" width=\"502\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" class=\"lazyload\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 502px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 502\/640;\" \/><\/a><\/div>\n<p><\/p>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both;text-align: center\"><a href=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/img\/b\/R29vZ2xl\/AVvXsEgo1Myon10bWyVzO-etulItvXaFTdzawi7_DuE8afnzucxtq9xmxDUqGn_eXoGGeniLD7_gk3paOBPcuC-kuwr4xx720p1bfaGvO6ugxNipePR6D4u93k1RI7Irwo3zifNwyaJWSZnT_w_t84uPhC5_9vLSMonoT_qJUOFmk9KI__6Sf-Jx_29jtVJB\/w514-h640\/calling%20brain%20based%20learning%20a%20myth.png\" style=\"margin-left: 1em;margin-right: 1em\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Screen capture of Myth of ID #2, Brain-based Learning\" border=\"0\" data-original-height=\"707\" data-original-width=\"567\" height=\"640\" data-src=\"https:\/\/blogger.googleusercontent.com\/img\/b\/R29vZ2xl\/AVvXsEgo1Myon10bWyVzO-etulItvXaFTdzawi7_DuE8afnzucxtq9xmxDUqGn_eXoGGeniLD7_gk3paOBPcuC-kuwr4xx720p1bfaGvO6ugxNipePR6D4u93k1RI7Irwo3zifNwyaJWSZnT_w_t84uPhC5_9vLSMonoT_qJUOFmk9KI__6Sf-Jx_29jtVJB\/w514-h640\/calling%20brain%20based%20learning%20a%20myth.png\" width=\"514\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" class=\"lazyload\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 514px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 514\/640;\" \/><\/a><\/div>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\"><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\"><br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Early May 2022 LinkedIn Post:<\/p>\n<p><\/span><span class=\"break-words\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Help me out! I\u2019m working<br \/>\n on an article on learner engagement and I have a fundamental question\u2026<br \/>\nWhat is \u201cbrain-based\u201d learning exactly? Beyond rhetorics, videos, and<br \/>\ntheoretical blogs (mostly about cog psych)\u2026 Have you ever<br \/>\ntried\/implemented \u201cbrain-based\u201d learning? What exactly did you do? With<br \/>\n what performance results? <\/p>\n<p>Thanks so much!!<\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\"><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Mike:<\/p>\n<p><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Doesn\u2019t all learning happen in the brain?<\/p>\n<p>Patti:<\/p>\n<p><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">Ever touched a hot stove?? \ud83d\ude00<\/p>\n<p>Mike:<\/p>\n<p>Patti, <\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">I do that all the time. Just a few days ago I burnt my knuckles while turning over food with my hands while it was in the oven.<\/p>\n<p>Bob:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><br \/><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Mike, If you cut your fingers off you will forget all about it \ud83d\ude09<\/p>\n<p>Cathy:<\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span dir=\"ltr\">This<br \/>\n may be a side bar but, there is research that suggest our entire<br \/>\nnervous system can \u201clearn\u201d, not just in our brain. I enjoyed reading The<br \/>\n Embodied Mind by Thomas Verdy. Brain-based can refer to cognitive<br \/>\nprocess or somatic pathways (such as developmental reflexes and<br \/>\npatterning in humans)<\/span><\/span> <\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p>[A rare, positive, and correct response!]<\/p>\n<p>Pirate (interesting name, so I kept it):<br \/><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">Saying<br \/>\n &#8220;brain-based&#8221; learning is like saying mouth-based eating or leg-based<br \/>\nwalking..that&#8217;s the first issue . Every scientist that I know and work<br \/>\nwith will roll their eyes at that.  It&#8217;s a marketing term. <\/p>\n<p>There<br \/>\n is a direct value from what we learn about the function of the brain<br \/>\nfrom neuroscience\/cognitive neuroscience and how that can be translated<br \/>\ninto the practice of learning and learning design.  That being said, it<br \/>\ntakes a high degree of understanding to know how to appropriately put<br \/>\nthis into practice for it to be effective<\/p>\n<p>When we blend the<br \/>\nunderlying function of the brain with method\/theory it can be quite<br \/>\nremarkable what we can do and the results that one can achieve, but it&#8217;s<br \/>\n a much greater conversation than what I can get into in a response<br \/>\nhere.  You&#8217;re always welcome to reach out \ud83d\ude42 <br \/>Making<br \/>\n sure the correct information is being shared is incredibly important to<br \/>\n maintaining credibility when it comes to science, humans, and learning<br \/>\nand I appreciate your curiosity! YARR!!<\/p>\n<p>[Oo, looks who&#8217;s back. OP from above poking head in.]<\/p>\n<p><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\">It&#8217;s bollocks,  that&#8217;s what it is. <a href=\"https:\/\/3starlearningexperiences.wordpress.com\/2019\/09\/24\/brain-based-bullocks\/\">https:\/\/3starlearningexperiences.wordpress.com\/2019\/09\/24\/brain-based-bullocks\/<\/a><\/p>\n<p>Once again, stopping on the copying here, there is just too much.<\/p>\n<p><\/span><\/span><\/span><span class=\"comments-comment-item__main-content feed-shared-main-content--comment t-14 t-black t-normal\"><span><span dir=\"ltr\"><\/span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Brain-based Learning is actually a well established learning theory. I&#8217;ll refer to a separate blog post on that.<br \/><span><\/span><\/span><\/p>\n<p><!--more--><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\"><br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">I fear that different areas of Education are coming up next: Gender-based studies?&nbsp; What about the contributions of Indigenous Peoples to Science or Health\/Medicine Education? <br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Bear in mind that I don&#8217;t mind &#8220;Thinking better when the time comes&#8221;&#8211; oh yes, I&#8217;m all for that. I don&#8217;t think we should cling to old ideas for old ideas sake.&nbsp; For example, humans had &#8216;slavery for blacks&#8217; for a long time. Now we don&#8217;t. I think getting rid of slavery was <u><i>a very good new idea<\/i><\/u>.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">But what&#8217;s happening with this cancel culture is that someone somewhere suddenly thinks that something is dumb, stupid, outdated, or wrong and then they want everyone to discard it.&nbsp; These are established parts of our academy of knowledge. The time for testing and weighing ideas is when they are new, not when they are old.&nbsp; Said another way&#8230;just because you do not understand it, does not mean that you can toss it out. And a LACK OF WILLINGNESS to understand does not get you out of the problem (ignorance).<br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span><!--more--><\/span><\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<div class=\"separator\" style=\"clear: both;text-align: center\"><a href=\"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/07\/erica-marsland-huynh-nSv6iTjq72Y-unsplash-scaled.jpg\" style=\"margin-left: 1em;margin-right: 1em\"><img decoding=\"async\" alt=\"Photograph of Salem-like harvest table with autumn colors\" border=\"0\" data-original-height=\"4032\" data-original-width=\"3024\" height=\"640\" data-src=\"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/07\/erica-marsland-huynh-nSv6iTjq72Y-unsplash-scaled.jpg\" width=\"480\" src=\"data:image\/svg+xml;base64,PHN2ZyB3aWR0aD0iMSIgaGVpZ2h0PSIxIiB4bWxucz0iaHR0cDovL3d3dy53My5vcmcvMjAwMC9zdmciPjwvc3ZnPg==\" class=\"lazyload\" style=\"--smush-placeholder-width: 480px; --smush-placeholder-aspect-ratio: 480\/640;\" \/><\/a><\/div>\n<\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Photo by <a href=\"https:\/\/unsplash.com\/es\/@partyintheshire?utm_source=unsplash&amp;utm_medium=referral&amp;utm_content=creditCopyText\">Erica Marsland Huynh<\/a> on <a href=\"https:\/\/unsplash.com\/s\/photos\/salem-witch?utm_source=unsplash&amp;utm_medium=referral&amp;utm_content=creditCopyText\">Unsplash<\/a><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">What do the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.smithsonianmag.com\/history\/a-brief-history-of-the-salem-witch-trials-175162489\/\" rel=\"nofollow\" target=\"_blank\">Salem witch trials<\/a> and woke cancel culture have in common?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Both established rogue thoughts as truth.<\/p>\n<p>I&#8217;m sorry to report that over the past few months, cancel culture has arrived in Instructional Design.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Personally, I&#8217;ve seen &#8220;<b>Andragogy<\/b>&#8221; and &#8220;<b>Brain-Based Learning<\/b>&#8221; attacked and discarded on public LinkedIn posts, threads, and some blog posts. I&#8217;ll be collecting them here below as I find them. However, if there get to be too many (and already collecting these was depressing and exhausting.&nbsp; In one case there were 30 replies and that was not even to me!) I&#8217;ll stop collecting.<\/p>\n<p><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\"><span>&nbsp;<\/span>It is as if a newer ID hears of brain-based learning, says to<br \/>\nthemselves &#8220;huh, where else is learning supposed to happen?&#8221; and then<br \/>\ncalls brain-based learning stupid because of the name. <br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">I&#8217;ve<br \/>\n tried to point out that what&#8217;s happening is that less educated<br \/>\nInstructional Designers are approaching these concepts as words only or<br \/>\nwith very little in-depth research and are tossing out the concept<br \/>\nentirely.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">In<br \/>\n the case of Andragogy, I tried defending it. It&#8217;s an established<br \/>\nsection of education with a depth of history of more than 50 years (in<br \/>\npopular Education studies, longer in lexicon). Attacking it, to me, is<br \/>\nthe equivalent of attacking Black History.&nbsp; Why would you do this? It<br \/>\nmakes no sense.&nbsp; The arguments against andragogy always seem to equate little children with adults.&nbsp; <\/p>\n<p>For example: <br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<ul style=\"text-align: left\">\n<li><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">According to andragogy, adults want to know why. <\/span><\/li>\n<li><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">My child asks why.&nbsp;<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">When doing so, my child behaves as an adult.<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">My child is not an adult.<\/span><\/li>\n<li><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Therefore, andragogy does not exist.&nbsp;<\/span><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><span class=\"rTNyH RZQOk\">Rinse &amp; repeat with a lot of cognitive elements (my child can do this, my child can do that&#8230;)&nbsp; Always exceptions. Piaget gets dragged into this (he does below). Perhaps then begin the &#8220;Well, if one part of false, then all parts are false&#8221; arguments&#8230;which themselves are <a href=\"https:\/\/www.psychologytoday.com\/intl\/blog\/thoughts-thinking\/201708\/18-common-logical-fallacies-and-persuasion-techniques\" target=\"_blank\">logical fallacies<\/a>. Duh.<\/p>\n<p>It&#8217;s tough out there. Note in this first example, the author is the post is ALSO the author of the article hosting place called The Learning Scientists&#8212; which is a point that I make; that the OP is putting on a aura of authority that is, perhaps, inappropriately authoritative to the audience. Said another way, readers might not understand that the writing, all inclusive here, was opinion.<br \/><\/span><\/p>\n<div>\n<h2 style=\"text-align: left\">Andragogy<br \/><\/h2>\n<p><span><\/span><\/p>\n<\/div>\n<div class=\"link-more\"><a href=\"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/?p=736\" class=\"more-link\">Continue reading<span class=\"screen-reader-text\"> &ldquo;The Salem Witches of ID OR Cancel culture has arrived in Instructional Design&rdquo;<\/span>&hellip;<\/a><\/div>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":737,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[301,11,48,326,325],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-736","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-cancel-culture","category-instructional-design","category-poor","category-salem-witch-trial","category-woke-culture","entry"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/736","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcomments&post=736"}],"version-history":[{"count":1,"href":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/736\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":740,"href":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/posts\/736\/revisions\/740"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/index.php?rest_route=\/wp\/v2\/media\/737"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fmedia&parent=736"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Fcategories&post=736"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/cogitateandpercolate.com\/index.php?rest_route=%2Fwp%2Fv2%2Ftags&post=736"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}